Posts by moggy lover

14

Angel Christology

by POSTMAN in

new to this list so i am not aware what has been discussed perhaps i am requesting for repete answers forgive me if this is the case.

i am very interested in the christ michael argument.

could i be directed to all watchtower arguments where this belief is set out.

moggy lover

Narkissos, I found that they have indeed changed the format of their site somewhat. To access the article I am talking about you will need to:

1 Type in the Jehovah's Witness's United site on Google

2 When you get to the page click "site search"

3 This where they have changed the format. Previously, a series of articles would pop up. But now you need to type in "Is Jesus Michael" in the site search using the "advanced search" clip.

4 The first article that pops up is one researched and written by one Chuck McManigal, who may or may not actually be a WT follower.

Read it and let us know your critique.

If you still have trouble try : http://jehovah.to./exe/general/archangel.htm

Cheers

14

Angel Christology

by POSTMAN in

new to this list so i am not aware what has been discussed perhaps i am requesting for repete answers forgive me if this is the case.

i am very interested in the christ michael argument.

could i be directed to all watchtower arguments where this belief is set out.

moggy lover

If you want to read a well researched article written from a WTS perspective I would reccomend the Jehovah's Witnesses United web site.

When you get to the site, click "site search" and a series of articles, including one entitled "Is Jesus Michael the Archangel"? will pop up. It is articulate, erudite, and even if, as in my case, not accepatable, still, conceded to be persuasive in its own right.

It prints out into a lengthy ten page document.

Cheers

32

THE WAGES SIN PAYS

by Dansk in

the bible tells us that the wages sin pays is death.

therefore, when we die our debt is paid.. however, in the bible there are a number of cases where people got resurrected.

as their debt was paid, this means they couldn't die again.. ah, but some might say that these ones merely went on to live the average length of time and then died again.

moggy lover

Evangelicals believe that the context, particularly taking in the grammatical tense that Paul uses throughout Rom Ch 6, is helpful in determining what he is talking about.

It is true that quite often the WTS has used Ro 6:7 to justify its teaching that the incorrigible are given a "second chance" when they are resurrected sometime during the Millennium. They give the impression that Paul is saying that once one dies, the debt he owed has been paid so when resurrected that person can now start again, a free from the burden of his past.

Is that what Paul is referring to? Ever notice how, whenever the WTS uses this verse they never consult the context, ie the surrounding vss of Ch 6, to detirmine Paul's meaning.

The question that Paul is adressing is not the resurrection, but one that the WTS itself often uses, cynically, to negate the grace of God in forgiving us, thus no longer requiring us to "work" to expiate our sins. What? You mean that God has forgiven me all my sins? Even those I hav'nt even committed yet? Every single sin? And all I gotta to is believe on the Lord Jesus? Yes.

But that means I can just keep on sinning since I have already been fogiven, right?

Wrong. Shall we go on sinning, so that grace may increase? No. 6:1.

Why?

Because there are two kinds of people in the world today. Those who are dead and those who are alive. The thing that seperates them is sin. The awfullness of sin has never really been made plain to the R&F of the WTS. If you continue in your sins, then, being alive to sin, you are in fact dead to God. If you are dead to sin, then you are alive to God. This is the alternative Paul discusses in Ro ch 6.

Either be alive or dead. If belief in Christ is motivating you, then consider yourself alive. [6:11]. This will cause you to break the power of sin in your life, no longer obeying its desires. You cannot be, as the WTS suggests, alive to God, by going from d-t-d, yet at the same time also alive to sin.[6:16]

If you are alive to sin, then sin has a hold of you. No matter how many times you ask forgivness, no matter how many hours you spend in the field service, because you are alive to sin, you are unforgiven.

But what if you have died to sin? Ah! That, according to Paul, is precisely the point!! You are then acquitted from sin, and it has no hold on you [6:7] The grace of God has now got a hold of you, and you are alive to Him.[6:17]

Belief in Christ, living what Paul calls an existence "in Christ" causes two seperate conditions in the believers life: 1. Complete forgiveness, of all sin.Past. Present. And future [Note that according to the WTS, belief in the WTS only ensures forgiveness of something called "Adamic sin" your own personal sins need expiation by your efforts] 2: Being now acquitted from sin, you enjoy fellowship with Christ, for while yet being a sinner, capable of sin, you no longer are alive to it.[6:2]

If you wish to go from d-t-d, evangelize, visit hospitals, feed the poor, or whatever, you don't do so to get forgiveness for sin, because you are already acquitted from it, but because the appreciation for the grace of God motivates you.

The first guy to understand this point clearly was Martin Luther, back in the 16th century

And he broke from Rome.

Many ex-WT followers are in the same position, leading to their break from Brooklyn Heights.

Cheers

6

Revelation 5:10

by pete957133 in

moggy lover

Hi,P957133, and welcome to the forum.

Now.....You were saying?

Cheers

106

POLL: Would You Ever Consider Going Back To The Organization?

by minimus in

jw
friends

yes, no or maybe....and why?

moggy lover

WOW! What a dream!! I dreamt I was, like, this... CO? And I was on a date with Leo....... Darn near exhausted me!!

Sorry.

Erm... What was the question?

Cheers

29

JWs and Gambling

by JohnnyMarr in

jw
friends

i've been inactive for a while and i can't remember the jws stance on gambling.

i'm kinda big into poker now and i want to know what to expect if i'm televised or spotted in a public tournament.

is it a disfellowshipping offense, public reproof offense, or conscious decision?

moggy lover

Yep. If you're seen you'd be a goner.

As any spy worth his salt will tell you, the two dead giveaways are the shape of the ears and the way you walk. Like a fingerprint, we all have individual walks.

Remember to go as an Amish brother, with long hair to cover the ears, along with a beard.

Oh, and another thing. Put a pebble in your shoe, to walk with a limp.

You can win [or lose] as many matches as you want, and no one will know - except of course for the 400 odd of us on JWD. We can always negotiate a renumeration for our collective silence.

Coming to think of it, it might be cheaper to get disfellowshipped.

Cheers

4

1914 Generation Doctrine

by averyniceguy in

when did the watchtower teach 1914 generation doctrine for the 1st time?

moggy lover

To the best of my knowledge the 1874 thing was replaced by the 1914 thingee in 1925. Which would be a convenient time to date the 1914 generation doctrine, in my opinion.

Of course, like a combination of snake oil salesmen and conjurers, they have advanced several apologetics for what the "1914 generation" might mean. Not all of which, as is the latest one, being understandable to the R&F.

Cheers

32

Who is going to finally expose the WTS for what it really is?

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

jw
friends

the walls of the wts are finally being cracked but nobody is breaking down the walls.we have the internet exposing all their lies,elders resigning,no new members beside families being baptized, contributions dwindling,teens leaving in droves,and layoffs at the wts headquarters .still,the walls remain intact.the 800 lbs.

gorilla is missing to break down the wall.. we know in 1975 many members left but the wts wall was easily repaired.who will finally break the walls down and how will it happen?

what will it take for a mass exodus?.

moggy lover

I don't think any one person or even any group acting as one person will accomplish this. But having said that, I would rather be on our side of the fence than the WTS's..

The position facing the WTS is similar to that faced by the 16th century RC church as it braced itself for the intellectual onslaught brought about by the information revolution which the invention of printing produced. The RC Church at that time used strong arm tactics such as the Spanish Inquisition, [Oooh I asked for this: Did someone mention the Spanish Inquisition? - Enter a menacing, gaudily garbed, Michael Palin] But their greatest support came from the ordinary R&F who, convinced of the Church's divine right to the exclusive approval of God, rallied to cause. This stemmed the hemorrage, but irrevocably diminished their influence.

Showing that they have learned nothing from history, the WTS is reacting to the information explosion brought about by the internet in the same way. With starchamber tactics, and because of an even greater desire to control the way their R&F receive information, with pressure from the elders.

Funny about the R&F though. Just as in the 16th century, we are seeing the fanatical zeal of those who are convinced, possibly as a result of the jhoover syndrom, [ie that simply pronouncing this tri-syllabic word ensures divine authority in their lives] to stand by their theological masters. We will always see a reservoir of believers who are content to abdicate all thinking to those they consider as having the exclusive backing of God.

But statistics don't lie. There are more of us than there are of them!! More people have been able excercise their own insights into the facts and abandoned their flawed leaders than those who by blind obedience, have stayed on.

With an average membership of some 6M world wide, well over that number are ex-followers of the WTS. As the Net becomes more accessable to the majority, the bankruptcy of WT belief will be all that more evident.

To the great fear of the WT leadership, the tide is in our favour. And we are all contributing.

Ever noticed the number of newbies on JWD lately?

Cheers

11

Has the GB of the WTS lost it

by bobld in

oct km 06 literature offer for january 2007,se,pe or any book published prior to 1991.this offer is repeated in nov.,dec km 06 and jan km 07.in my library i have a number of wts publications prior to 1991,included are re 1988 editions.how can i in good conscience place this book with the public.when the sept.km 06 has 70 corrections for this publication.since the km is for private use by j.w.

in good standing i cannot make any adjustment to my copy of the publication w/o breaking copyright laws and/or losing my privileges.are the gb of the wts asking me to lie or mislead the public with an outdated publication or am i to destroy my old publications..no that would be wasting wts literature.. beginning in january 2007 we will study re at the congregation book study.the bro/sis are using a soft cover edition of the re book.however,in the first 3 lessons there are a number of discrepancies between the soft cover book and the hard cover(which i got) with the sept km 06 corrections.. here is a list.

chapter 1 para 7 old..why should another book on revelation be published at this present time.

moggy lover

To the best of my knowledge, this isn't the first time that they have done this.

Back in 1925, JFR changed the WT teaching of Christ having come invisibly from 1874 to 1914, yet late into the 1930s the WT were encouraging their followers to offload many of their older publications on the public, even though they taught, from a WT standpoint, such heretical doctrines as the 1874 invisible return!!

Here was a chance to rid themselves of unwanted paper, and make a quick buck as well. Which of course, the WTS being a business after all, is the bottom line.

Your "conscience" doesn't count, since the WTS, with its collective jhoover approved conscience, has decided for you, so just go out and get rid of the damn things, keep your mouth shut, and, most important of all, put the cash in the money box.

Cheers

31

144000, Where did Russell get his idea, and what do other religions believe

by jwfacts in

where did russell get the notion that the 144k are a literal number, and that they are the rulers in heaven?

what do other religions believe this group to represent?.

what did john really mean?.

moggy lover

Although the details may vary among various Evangelical Bible groups some facts we can garner about their views on the 144k are:

1 They are not in existence at the present. Their presence is mentioned in Rev ch 7, which begins with the words: "After these things" So, evidently it is only after some events, which are mentioned in Ch 6, that the 144k emerge. [Interestingly, in the Rev book, which gives an exhaustive discussion of this section, in order to suggest the on-going existence of the 144k since 33AD, these three words are artfully ignored. When, in conversation with various WT followers I mentioned these words, requiring a justification for why these 144k can possibly exist "before these things" the reply I was given was that Rev does not always mean what it says. "After these things" can be a symbol for "before these things" With such elastic logic, one can only suggest that the Bible can be made to say any thing]

2 Most agree that Ch 6 tells of the opening of the Great Tribulation, which even the Rev book agrees with.

3 So, somtime after the start of the Great Tribulation, whoever these 144k are, they will begin what is called a "Great Tribulation ministry" ie a preaching work world-wide where the message of the Kingdom of Christ will be preached to all. This and not a current flawed work by the WTS, is the fulfillment of Matt 24:14, which entire Ch is devoted to the future events of the GT

4 The details are not agreed on by all, but these 144k, are indeed a literal number, and literal Jews, evidently young unmarried men, from the various tribes mentioned. It needs to be remembered that Protestant Evangelical groups who still advocate a future blessing for the Jewish people, do not believe, like the WTS believes, that the 12 tribes have become lost. It is just that the means of identifying them are. An archaeological find, an exposure of documents brought about by some earthquake, a discovery in some long lost library etc, could easily provide a means to identifying these tribes.

5 Some Evangelical groups believe that when the GT begins, the Rapture takes place, removing all True Christians from the scene. [Pre-Tribulationists] This will require the work of "born again" Jews to do the preaching work during this time. Some believe that during the 7 year period that marks the GT, the Rapture only occurs at the mid-point, ie after three and a half years, so these 144k Jews will assist the Christans in the preaching work till the rapture, when they will continue on their own.[Mid-Tribulationists]

6 Whatever the details, as a consequence of this evalgelizing work, a number of "Tribulation Saints" will be saved, who will end up "before the throne" as a great crowd. They will be the ones who cared for Christ's "brothers" [the 144k] during the GT [Matt 25:40], and who will gain the approval of Christ for doing so.

These are the views that are held by those who prefer a literalist, futurist interpretation of Rev. Other Evangelicals who hold to either a preterite or historical interpretation, [sometimes referred to as Amillennialists] feel that the 144k "Jews" are a symbolic number representing several things. The most common view is that they represent the Church down through the centuries.

Real Christianity allows for a variety of interpretations, all compatible with the understanding of what the Holy Spirit leads one to believe. Unlike the haughty, pompous, attitude of the WTS whch insists on its own imperatives, I have yet to see one Evangelical "disfellowship" another simply for holding a different opinion.

Cheers